At this point high-traffic Atheist blogs became tighly knot with evolution, and naturally started to get very interested in genetics. Atheists plus we fight homophobia and transphobia, They both really, really enjoy aggressive confrontation with people who believe in the idea that they oppose. I think the Intellectual Dark Web (e.g. So I think that elevatorgate is a beautiful example of a scissor statement. I’m not sure when exactly that was, but it was before 2010. For what it’s worth, it was originally published on FreethoughtBlogs at the height of elevatorgate, as a direct response to people making the exact arguments that you are making here. They also attacked the people they depended on for food. Irreligiosity steadily rises. Explicitly religious political parties have been relegated to the fringe, and find it more and more difficult to reach the 5% of the vote threshold required to take a seat in parliament (e.g. The internet is weird in that it makes half a decade seem like ancient history. When people drop their religion, they generally do so for another one, because the answers to those questions motivate so much of what we do. It’s pretension. You back them into a corner. Good point – I had noticed the “live in places” part and ignored the “friend/professional groups” part, which is probably bigger. The other one I’ve heard, that refers to Jews, is: A guy was walking down a street in Ireland when a man approached him from behind and stuck a knife to his throat. I wish to second this, because one can never have enough praise. Even from America, I come across plenty of conservative writers who clearly aren’t into white identity politics, and mainstream conservatism in the rest of the Anglosphere is even less into white identity stuff than its American counterpart. Now SJ is the religion that gets to insert its bullshit into school curriculum. I guess after they split, both sides discovered to their surprise that they didn’t actually care about atheism at all. It describes a tribal mindset, and TRM doesn’t claim or even imply that it — or tribalism itself — is the root of all evil. I mean, it says it right there in the scripture that they are enemies of all mankind, and of their father, the devil! The monster’s website received tens of millions of visitors, 60,000 emails (“about 95 percent” supportive), and was covered in The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Daily Telegraph. Actually, I suspect that the features I’m talking about may be as much, if not more, central features of religion in a global, historical perspective than hamartiology. – the people involved in 2000s-era internet atheism were a different generation than the 2010s-era social justice movement. One really interesting addition to me is that the early internet was a very, VERY free speech place. Functionalism and eliminativism about consciousness, with their stamp of approval from Daniel Dennett, became the “smart position to take” on consciousness, and any kind of acknowledgement of the deep scientific and philosophical problems posed by (1) the existence of consciousness, (2) the myriad values of qualia, (3) the binding problem, and (4) the causal power of unitary moments of experience became *intrinsically associated* with woo and religious takes. For example, I don’t think the cult of Vesta offered a comprehensive answer to questions like “what is wrong with the world” and “what is to be done” but it did demand some priestesses observe celibacy and keep a sacred fire burning. So they must have had some good reasons for believing. PZ Myers wrote his own obituary of New Atheism at the start of this year, inspired by another overview of the movement, both I think fairly good articles. Things like the Da Vinci Code and the Passion of the Christ, too. +1. I hadn’t heard of the term at the time, but looking back on it it’s pretty obvious that I was part of the New Atheist zeitgeist back in my Advance Wars Bunker days. This predated the rise of SJ by a few years. I wasn’t an activist type back then (and still am not), but I did read the usual books by Dennet, Harris etc with approval, read a couple of atheist blogs, and had a general guideline of “when you’re in serious disagreement with Dawkins, you’re most likely wrong”. Even though we can find plenty of examples of religion holding back progress, it’s very difficult to make a compelling case that religion is a purely evil force in the world. Do you have a herstogram that supports this? This is what multiculturalism is all about. The non-Christianity-believers went full SJW, and that makes a lot of sense to me. I was pretty young during the movement’s early years, but I sort of recall a period back in something like the mid-late aughts (shortly after Dawkins’ book came out) when bashing New Atheism – in certain limited contexts – was a way for young educated liberals to set themselves apart and/or establish their intellectual and freethinking bona fides. We will not consider you a part of it, we will not work with you, we will not befriend you. I was one. But after Bush left and the Tea Party became the face of the GOP, this bogeyman became less powerful. I think RationalWiki is correct that Elevatorgate would have added to nothing if such a visible leader of Atheism (Dawkins) hadn’t sounded so harsh afterwards. United Future disappearing, Conservatives at a permanent low ebb). ), went to Christian private schools, but my parents just were sort of “meh” about questions like “does God exist” and “is there an afterlife.” They kind of paid these ideas lip service when we were kids but as we got older it was apparent they didn’t really believe them in any sort of serious, metaphysical way; they were just cultural artifacts. We don’t have anything on that scale between atheists and religious people. The thing that irked was that some guy hit on her in the elevator of the hotel she was staying at in an atheist convention. I don’t think the average self-identified athiest came to it independently from first principles. That was a big part of his story. There’s something to that, but what this is missing is that most of the atheist movement quit the field when things actually got serious. Part of me wishes there was a viable alternative to this fatalism. Perhaps, rather than looking internally at “atheism” the answer is to look for confounding factors. What then would we say about the general position on the preference for rape? Sin began with the apple tree in Eden; conservativism began with the cotton plant in Jamestown. • or generational conflict in general (people have been hating on millennials for a while, and just recently I’ve seen people talking about using ‘boomer’ as a slur). I thought that Venn diagram of prominent supporters of the two is a circle (well, for people who were prominent in both time periods). Many people may not be autonomously be able to come up with different views, typically causing less invested observers to interpret the conflict with a bias to the side whose views are presented in the best light. Religion/atheism can be seen as a conformism issue (religions expect people to conform to a particular set of beliefs and morality and way of life and whatnot; we should be able to have beliefs that don’t conform, including but not limited to atheism and agnosticism), as can gender issues (society expects people of a particular gender to conform to specific gender roles and stereotypes) and sexual orientation (people expect people to conform to a particular type of relationship). Standpoint theory is not really a practical way to approach the real world. Whereas the midcentury political coalition mixed these things with the New Deal coalition that included southern racists and northern immigrants and blacks against the Harding/Eisenhower petty bourgeoisie everywhere. Depends on what you’re trying to win. I guess the trouble with movements is, they keep moving. One of Karl Rove’s strategies for George W. Bush was to promote mortgage lending to Hispanics to turn them into GOP-voting homeowners, following the model of the 1980s British Tories, who sold public housing to tenants and picked up some votes that way. Only the style and the medium changed. Are Chapo smarter than they realize? And Dostoevsky’s work is engrossing and compelling if nothing else. And atheists don’t really have anything to press for: church and state are already quite thoroughly separate in the USA. And I do not think you can escape this social trend just by declaring yourself an atheist. Your cynicism about the possibility of usefully coordinated human activism seems to run pretty deep. Their hamartiology included not just religion, but also racism and of course capitalism. I’m not really buying the framing here. One obvious one is animals; a critical mass moving eating meat (and other animal issues) from being a personal choice to an affront against them cosmos. Buchanan first gained national prominence in 1992, when he tried to primary George HW Bush, lost, and proceeded to endorse Bush in a famous RNC speech where he declared that America was in the midst of a “culture war” over abortion, gay rights, and women in the military. Have you ever considered writing a book solely composed of epigrams? I was a New Atheist then, and I still am now for any reasonably permissive definition. +1 for mention of Rebecca Watson’s ElevatorGate. Someone brought up an idea of dumping crushed olivine in shallow equatorial seas to sequester carbon through weathering, and the pushback there was explicitly that it’s not acceptable to use a solution that doesn’t cause first worlders to reduce their consumption habits in the process. Straight white male Blue Tribers are now suspect no matter the purity of their ideology. That the point of these debates was never really to engage in serious discourse and convince the other side. If I wanted to argue with a Bush supporter in 2004, the topic of religion (usually in the context of abortion) would often come up naturally, whereas I think a Trump supporter now is quite possibly an atheist himself. Plus all the shit we have now in NDE research and QM, which “The Skeptics” try very dishonestly and mostly-vainly to wave or explain away–often, it can be shown, outright misrepresenting the science or misrepresenting or smearing dissenters. Our data and model predict that atheist prevalence exceeds 11% with greater than .99 probability and exceeds 20% with roughly .8 probability. There are about a million ways to be a man. Not really. Your timeline seems a bit off from my experience, which was that the assumption of secularism goes back at least as far as 1987. It is already the policy of the police to pursue FGM and honour killings, since they are against the law; the goal of the NSS in those areas is therefore to change the administrative and political situation so as to re-emphasise said policy and heighten its (currently disturbingly low) prioritisation. Homophobia? Central progressive causes (especially back then) were women’s rights (i.e. I wish they had been, man. Another atheist group created the Skeptics’ Annotated Bible, a version of the Bible highlighting everything bad or wrong in it. Yep. None of it’s funny. Sometimes the distinction isn’t important (both groups are equally comfortable making fun of Bigfoot or debunking homeopathy) but sometimes causes friction (e.g., global warming denialism). I don’t want to claim that this is unusual, because it’s not (from the other side of the aisle, Dana Loesch is fond of pointing out when this kind of thing happens to her). And a pro-business party operates on interest politics, not identity politics. Then part of the movement rebranded as Open Source which originally basically meant “Our prefferred licenses lead to better software, so proprietary software is dumb (and also, mumble, mumble, still immoral) ” And then arguing over software licensing just went away almost entirely. That movement was very much about religion being dumb rather than just false and that’s were a detailed theory of why otherwise smart people think dumb things came in. I think they rise from the broader phenomenae that third world country are so poor that you can find huge groups of people there that are so badly off that even their easy to solve problems haven’t been solved. Someone a few steps back might be able to see the English declaring the Native Americans “savages” and conquering/colonizing their lands to be as non-racially-charged as the Romans declaring the Celts “barbarians” and conquering/colonizing their lands. A really nasty foul one that never did ANYTHING to make the world a better place. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/ . Ah, but did it not? Maybe it took a few more years for the New Atheist movement to realize they were fighting yesterday’s war. Except that for many, it really is just entertainment. Article . largely the things the NSS wants to achieve do not involve directly changing elements of that community; and besides, ex-Muslims would be worse than useless in doing so, since that community actively hates and hunts apostates. Glad I didn’t choose to reply to your response to my comment. Clearly if he wanted to rape her he didn’t have to invite her for a coffee first, so how was inviting her for a coffee somehow a signal of potential danger? (And similar things had happened previously in e.g. And/or possibly with the disagreement in the comments about what the “blue tribe” is? This was combined not only with the awfulness of Fundamentalist Islam, but also with the whole Catholic priests molesting kids thing. abortion) and gay rights – causes where the conservatives would often cite religion as their reason for opposition. This strategy probably worked pretty well in Texas, where land is cheap. 1. It may be that having a hamartiology or being a “true believer” creates a situation where the believer invests in the cause what seems like a ton of work from an outsider or opponent’s perspective but which does not feel like “work” or even particularly restrictive from the insider perspective because it seems righteous and/or even entertaining. I think it’s a lot different than social justice atheism. … that’s not what I’m describing as impossible. (Here, the churches that are new, or growing, are associated with immigrant communities, and average religiosity is sharply down over the last 20 years.). As an atheist, I prefer a future in which healthy, open-minded religion remains to one in which it vanishes. A3: They died with the other blogs. I have no idea why you think the scale in particular is offensive (although Dawkins is plenty offensive in myriad ways). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. The defenders lost the War on Christmas, and so other fights are fought. This is 100% correct. You mentioned P.Z. “When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. As atheists have long pointed out, atheism is one of the most stigmatized of beliefs or identities. We can also find plenty of scientists, mathematicians, and progressive philosophers who had cancer. So, both “sides” see value in collaborating with religious persons who can help them get their ideal world. The point Chesterton was making is that if you decide that there is no God, there will be a void in your psyche that will need to be filled by a God-like thing. And yet it seems perfectly natural. Surely it had some cheap shots at religious people in the portrayal of Sheldon’s mother (who nevertheless has been pictured as loving mother, and a competent parent successfully guiding a piece of work Sheldon obviously is and was to become a functioning adult) but it’s a comedy show, it’s supposed to show exaggerated caricatures for fun. As a theist, Hitchens was also my favorite of the Four Horsemen. But the followers split just as much as the leaders did. But I think it represented what a lot of people were doing anyway: trying to take the good bits of what had happened, and leave behind the crappy bits. Slavs aren’t white, that’s, like, Hitler 101. Not sure it’s much easier to turn 2008 into a race and gender issue, I know there were the subprime loans to blacks in particular but it seems surprising to concentrate on that if you’re not already looking at it through a race/gender lens. (E.g. It was very clearly targeted at the Mormon students. I think hamartiology is a pretty good explanation, John McWhorter’s theory that SJW is really just religion gets to a similar conclusion, though from a different direction. What happened to NAM? I guess I might’ve been a New Atheist in the 00s? But this is an oversimplification. Most of the arguments probably happen around that point. Interesting data point: as someone who also lives in a decent-sized New England town, has the population grown, or the demographics changed–or is it basically the same town it was 20 years ago? Their inner authoritarian demanded that they go prove to as many people as possible just how wrong that other guy on the internet was. To recap, Rebecca Watson echoed some of Jen’s complaints that some in the atheist community were sexist and/or lacking in social skills. The origins of the recent right wing populism are a bit more obscure than the origins of recent left wing radicalism, but perhaps that’s because the latter had an academic origin, and the former was more reactionary in the literal sense of the word. I see so much “debate” on this issue that leaves out the most relevant detail, the “dark alley” factor. Or the former Muslim Ayaan Hirsi Ali? And, tbh, this was an explicit goal of, and a big win for, the internet atheists. One was fundamentally pro-freedom, and the other is anti-freedom. Should I really have to belabor why this seems like an extremely bad idea for anyone? This is a simplistic history and I’m obviously leaving out a lot, but in every era there’s a utopian movement seeking to immanentize the eschaton and create a morally perfect society. (Seriously, 4chan racists try to use the prudence/legality of pit bull bans as a camel’s nose to argue that human populations come in behaviorally good and bad versions. Anecdotally – my vegetarianism always tended to be (and still is, to an extent, though people don’t react with consternation anymore, at most they get slightly inconvenienced by the need to feed me a non-standard meal) a much bigger deal than my non-belief. And now I can’t get 100% behind Social Justice, despite agreeing with its principles, because it is too rigid and combative, and besides I know it will inevitably win. It was extremely refreshing to read some stuff from Luke Muelhauser’s old blog, linked on the sidebar of SSC, because it felt like the first time I’d ever seen someone smart make reasonably analytical, knowledgeable and fair-minded arguments against religion. I can’t think of another explanation for both sides so ardently believing such profound nonsense. Those who argued that there are no supernatural things, and that you should teach evolution because it’s science. I wonder to what degree the trajectory of New Atheism was changed by her absence. The socialist wing of the Democratic Party seems to be working off a model kind of like this, but hoping to change the hamartiology from race/gender to class. In its place, we were left with an intolerable truth: a lot of people seem really horrible, and refuse to stop being horrible even when we ask them nicely. > One post I distinctly remember, but which I can no longer find, was a rousing call for atheists to switch to social justice blogging. When making suggestions to changes in norm among some group of people, it seems to me that it’s good to at least make a good-faith effort to sympathize with members of that group, even when they make what one perceives to be bad arguments, because they’re the ones in direct contact with those changes. True of most any public debate. Even for the Internet Sperg brigade (of which I am an OG example). A quick perusal of Wikipedia’s list of civil unrest shows that well more than half were racially motivated. I personally think gay marriage is a silly hill to die on, but I’ll defend my friends’ rights. And, FWIW, this feels pretty close to John McWhorter’s theory that SJW is really just religion – though approaching that conclusion from a slightly different direction. Those who break under adversities are reviled as losers, cowards, white feathers, incels, basement dwellers, etc. “Herstory” is a red herring here. the point of these debates was never really to engage in serious discourse and convince the other side. Instead of arguing about interpretations of the Book, and meeting conservatives on their home turf, simply abandoning religion entirely let progressives reject these arguments and eliminate much of the foundation of their opposition. I was stumped. Any attempt to describe what’s happening in the absence of social media dynamics will fail, because those dynamics are well upstream of any form of rational discourse. This sparked a series of increasingly incendiary and personally hostile comments on the Atheist blogosphere between people who argued that the man did essentially nothing wrong, and people who argued that the behavior was inappropriate and called those who disagreed sexists. Given what we know (Haidt/Tetlock/Kahneman/Taleb etc.) That’s not to say that it was intolerant of other cultures, and it was extremely good at appropriating stuff from non-white or sorta-white-but-not-the-right-kind-of-white groups and using it to create a consensus culture. Over the past couple years he’s definitely written a lot of pro free speech stuff (and it may be a majority of his output, or of what’s read), but it’s far from his sole output. But I may be over-selling the analogy here. You have to be the child of a Zoroastrian to be a Zoroastrian (at least that’s how some Parsis explained it to me). In Marx’s Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right (1843-4), he writes, For Germany, the criticism of religion has been essentially completed, and the criticism of religion is the prerequisite of all criticism.’. B: I don’t believe in god. The simplest explanation I can think of (not necessarily the correct one of course) is that your information diet includes a sort of stupidpol/realpeerreview style Bad Take Syndication service to keep you informed of all the Chinese people robbing banks (and, one presumes, being acquitted for reasons of structural white supremacy). Are you referring to Antifa? If I say: “the men here prefer to rape women,” would you argue that individual men ought not to feel offended? Re George W. Bush’s presidency: for me (an anti-Bush budding atheist adolescent at the time), at least, it was about something deeper than Bush’s overt conservative religiosity and appearance of basing policy on his personal religious beliefs. To show that activism is like I described above he cites a bunch of examples like the left wing push for public housing, which later resulted in housing projects with a reputation for being dens of crime and violence. I wanted to comment to say: This is a great post and I hope your curiosity leads you down the History Of The Internet From A Social Perspective^TM rabbit hole a few more times in future! I wonder if that’s a common pattern, and if so, why. Each side has a simple explanation for why the other must be stopped. I’m skeptical. Pace what you say, it sounds like they should be trashing David French and aren’t? ... Theyâve found new, quantum versions of the laws that scale up to the originals. Hmm, I wonder who’s a better representation of the future of conservatism 10-15 years hence, Jacob Wohl, or Nick Fuentes? Thus, we’re naturally seeing a shift. You know, the group that has become the fascists they set out to punch/exterminate? If you believe the U.S government would never ever do such a thing, just insert your least favorite intelligence agency in place of the U.S. Here’s a quote from someone on my facebook wall. There was still discussion there after the towers fell, but the hard shift in OSC’s editorials on the front page made it awkward some times. This has always puzzled me. Generally oppose policies that have clear and direct victims, unless the evidence of greater benefits to indirect beneficiaries is overwhelming. Perhaps that was my selecting particular posts or arriving late. So we have, for the twentieth century, a large population of Modernists descended ideals that have basically transmuted into a form of secularism. I still thought a lot of people were awfully angry at a God who doesn’t exist, but whatever, it’s a free country. . In the mid-1800s, abolitionists. ETA: “I can’t imagine gaining any useful insight into the minds of myself or people like me,” is an overstatement – better is I can’t imagine gaining any useful insight into the aspects of my mind that are central to my atheism. In the late 1700s, Unitarians. She didn’t really explain what she meant by that, or which way of propositioning to her, if any, would have been appropriate. Could the ethics and efficacy of priest punching as anti-religious activism ever have been debated as widely and seriously as Nazi punching? Resonated in a voice that we’d ignored under the illusion of solidarity. It seems difficult to beat the memetic and genetic forces of religion. One can’t really destroy a religion without somehow creating a new one. You just had to admit that Aquinas, Leibniz, Descartes, Augustine, Plantinga, Belloc, some Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox clergymen you’ve never heard of, etc. People stopped arguing because the atheists had won. Why is “social justice” not a more contentious term? She’s got the whole house decorated in the style, she thinks that husbands need to be spoiled. Clearly if he wanted to rape her he didn’t have to invite her for a coffee first, so how was inviting her for a coffee somehow a signal of potential danger? EIAC was every man for himself; you would march forth alone into your chosen bulletin board and engage, neither seeking or receiving any help beyond precooked arguments from your local armory-site. Michael Brooks and the Majority Report crew discuss this. In precisely the same way that the Ancient Greek pantheon gets to take credit for the origins of western philosophy, I guess? Evangelicals who took their religion too seriously, but not about debating the basic questions because we’d already reached a point where religion was primarily a cultural practice rather than a belief system. If the average American moves to Japan learning to be less confrontational would probably be part of adjusting his social skills to better match local mores, but the reverse might be true if he were to move to Russia. I think they may in fact have served a role in the renewal of Western Christianity, by clearing out some of the chaff. I remember philosophers in the ~2008 period having discussions about the difference between poorly argued New Atheism and respectable atheists like Bertrand Russel, Carl Sagan, Karl Popper(? Could it be that the rationalist movement was built out of the shattered remains of the new atheist movement? We hear the demands for open borders in all but name. Why are we now supposed to throw a man under the bus based on unverifiable hearsay?”). For one, New Atheism did seem to be a demographically white male movement, reflecting the people who were raised evangelical and enter internet forum debates. 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Diagram, you just described the mission statement of effective Altruism you believe God doesn ’ t do,. Make people ’ s a fourth question about the spirit of the commenters were just applying those principles New... ( ie privilege ) and gay rights, they keep moving the goal of, and in! National television, which is built up around moralism is in the Bush admin on the graph...? v=udJw-CzX7sA ) I did enjoy being reminded of the world the incident in a world esp... Black and Arab Muslims into close contact with westerners EIAC as much as the field.
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